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This, as with any other type of penetration test, is plagued with inaccuracies. It goes in a like a nail.. I can load my rounds as hot as I want, and often do. I read a study from an Army medic regarding one shot kills from a handgun. Pain is generally physiologically irrelevant, but where present often just makes motivated targets angry and thus, more motivated. But the US never officially ratified these protocols, and is not officially bound by them. I have not fired it yet but have dry fired it some to get back in tune. Unless they needed concealablity. Shooting another person is only done with the intention to, at the very least, incapacitate the subject to protect the physical safety of others. Due to the heavy load some people with both types of weapons had malfunctions as the slide was moving too fast causing failure to feed. Since the mid-2000s, gunmakers catering to consumers who increasingly buy weapons for self-defense have produced fewer of the small-caliber handguns like the .25 or .32, and, A .22 will kill you, but it wont blow your head apart, he said. 9mm, I carry 147 grain Hp. If you find yourself in a legitimate self-defense scenario, you will likely not have the opportunity nor the wherewithal to take a careful and well-aimed shot at your assailant's head. 3 rounds all center mass within 2 inches of each other. I thought I would never own a 9 mm. The money has to come from somewhere. Yes, I will agree that air resistance is constantly at work against a bullet, thereby slowing it down as it travels toward its intended target. Hit your enemy Quickly and Hes Dead. One of the reasons for the 45 why soldiers love the 45 has to do with the bullet itself tumbling once it hits flesh. A pilot was shot and killed by a .45acp in WWII. THE FOWDYFIVE IS THE LORDS CALIBER!!! CAN I GET AN AMEN?!? (that was actually a thing btw, Im not As might be expected, larger-diameter bullets produce more devastating wound cavities and have a greater likelihood of striking vital organs. As Sir Isaac Newton pointed out a few centuries ago, for every action theres an equal reaction in the opposite direction. I like my Colt GOV. A round put through the central nervous system of a target is likely to be incapacitating regardless of the caliber chosen. They are both capable of inflicting mortal wounds far beyond practical range. I know .45 is a good SD round against the two legged threats. The bear was shot in the head through the screen.it was a one shot stop but needed another round to finish him off. I know a LEO that works in Mendocino County CA. Whether it hits the shoulder, the leg, arm, hip, whatever. We had competant and caring armorers and shooting instructors ( These guys gave a fuck and went out of their way for you ). The victim died immediately. Although it should be noted that Glock is manufacturing in the US now, Sig Sauer is as well. But I have some serious doubts about his understanding of external and terminal ballistics. I have never personally tested 9mm long range, but I have seen 45 Auto results. Its proven knowledge. You get Into a real shooting scenario. And fyi, if you are an expert at shooting a needle into peoples medulla, caliber is irrelevant until the large size becomes combersome. For the spray and pray that they teach nowadays the high cap 9mm is good. And if Im responsible enough to use a firearm to fight for my government, Im responsible enough to own a firearm to protect myself and loved ones. and departments. But you have to shoot the gun your most accurate with and most comfortable with but if you dont seat the grip of any pistol in the web of the hand deeply all guns no matter what the caliber the gun will whip in the hand. Factors like these led to the military adopting the Colt .45 ACP pistol as its standard sidearm in 1911. A more accurate equation is (terminal) Energy, defined as 1/2 the mass times the velocity squared. The ambulance took him away. And they call themselves a forensics expert.. Also SOCOM has been using hollowpoint ammunition for years, but primarily against unsanctioned terrorist personnel. Regards Jim, Sorry for the typos are you speak to text because I cant text like my child. We traded all the 9s some years ago for the 40 which give knockdown power plus multiple rounds. I am aware of the ballistics of both rounds, and am a handloader. I own 9mm, .40 and .45. Also we are talking pistols. Model. So logically the 45 is more effective at stopping Humans, than the 9mm, data from lethal census. I think it maybe a case of, its better to wound the enemy, than to kill him. I also do not understand why the M&P was disqualified, but it could be that other manufacturers guns have already been eliminated as well. The will to live and fight varies from person-to-person. Ive shot both calibers at humans as a soldier and as a LEO and 9mm just doesnt get the same results as 45 in the same number of shots. A .20 gauge double barrel should be good for home defense day for a woman or a guy. Fired expert m14. Now lets get back to today in time and we do have very good defense ammo so most of the time Id agree that the 9mm is equal to any other round out there today for human sized targets and smaller as well. How about some scientific caliber comparisons with the same type bullet and velocity range and most common weights. Now that has some stopping power and even at 600 yards. You must have JavaScript enabled in your browser to utilize the functionality of this website. Just how common are self-defense uses of firearms? The quibble is over. The 45s power and bullet size vs. the 9 mm Luger round was A pistol just sucks in that situation. And since the FBI was the agency who failed in the first place well, why follow thier blind lead? In one case study of a 24-year-old man struck in the chest by a .40-caliber hollow-point pistol round, doctors found organ damage outside the direct path of the bullet. He also competes in USPSA and 3-gun competitions including numerous top-10 finishes at major matches and championships. I carried a 1911 in Vietnam as well as a 12 ga. .45 stayed on the hip. The officer fired three round from his 9mm Baretta 92F. Another reason why in war officers loved the 45 as for close infighting it usually too just 1or2 shots to land the enemy on the ground. I know this is off topic. Stay safe everyone, JP, first of all, Im really sorry you had to go through that. The new .50Ae desert eagle has as much recoil as the 1911/M45 which is unrealistc (the .45 has alot less recoil). Glocks are cheap and reliable. Fragmentation cannot reliably be counted upon with handgun wounds because of the comparatively low velocity of handgun rounds. Between 14 and 45 , flak jacket and 5 mag 20 7.76 stayed in shape. 2.1 and 2.5 million defensive gun uses annually, Law Enforcement Assistance Administration, Arming Yourself: A Woman's Guide to Self Defense and Concealed Carry (CCW), Protecting Your Family: A Parent's Guide to Self Defense and Concealed Carry (CCW), Arming the Elderly: A Self-Defense Guide for Senior Citizens, Holsters for Self Defense: A Guide to Carrying Concealed, Arming Toddlers and The "Kinder-Guardians" Program: A Shamefully Bad Idea, Self Defense for LGBT: Self-Protection and Concealed Carry (CCW) for the LGBT Community, Arming the Disabled: A Self-Defense and Concealed Carry Guide for People With Disabilities. Soldiers and police officers are far more likely to engage multiple targets in extended shootouts with adversaries, and therefore have a much greater need for a high capacity pistol than I will in a self-defense scenario. So I want a round that will do the trick no matter if he flinches or I do. The 7.62 round is not as fast as the .223, the round fired by the AR-15 (Americas most popular semiautomatic rifle), but it, . Having fired 45 ACP and 9mm at human targets the 9 took 3 sometimes 4 hits c.o.m. We began clearing the location and papa was lying face up in nothing but his white-e-tieties. Matthew McConaughey tells the story of those killed in Uvalde in emotional plea for action on guns. With that in mind The most lead I can force through the air, the better. At 880 fps a 230 grains projectile has 395 foot pounds of muzzle energy. That use the same ammo is the way for me. One person might be able to control themselves and squeeze off a headshot. When you consider that almost all wounds from pistol caliber firearms were inflicted with SMGs, and when you consider that the most common German 9mm round issued during the war used a 90gr steel-core bullet loaded to do over 1400 ft/sec from pistol length barrels and 1800+ out of SMGs, and you compare this to the lumbering 230gr .45 caliber bullet that had less than half that velocity, it seems pretty plausible. But I understand the 9 isnt on level with the 45 and know unless a headshot presents itself I will have to dump my mag 7+1 into whoever makes me engage them for a favorable outcome. Heck a well placed .22 in the head can get the job done. What that means is that handgun bullets, as opposed to the devastating wound channels rifle projectiles can cause, are only just poking little holes in people. The amount of energy a bullet radiates into a target is determined by a simple formula taught in high school: Its the product of one half the projectiles mass times the square of the velocity. Sit back and take a deep breath and pray that if I am ever involved in a use of force criminal trial, pray like mad that this Marine is NOT called as an Expert Witness because I do not think there is enough toilet paper in a courthouse to clean up the mess this guy is going to make from his testimony. Hogwash!! Explore. Scalise, a Republican from Louisiana whose condition has been upgraded to serious, suffered broken bones, ruptured blood vessels, and shredded internal organs. A 35-45 psi There ya go compromise just carry both. Creatine is an amino acid located mostly in your body's muscles as well as in the brain. Was the 357 mag. A 7.6225 is venerated as so amazing by PPsh humpers. Weve known this for, what, eighty years now? Ballistic gel is a joke and not a valid substitute for actual flesh and bone. After the FBI, he served as a Massachusetts Deputy Inspector Generaland is currently a deputy sheriff for Plymouth County, Massachusetts. My bottom line is to shoot what you shoot the best. There are already documented instances where .45 ACP also failed to get reliable stops on a bad guy. All this scientific garbage really sounds great, but if you need fifteen rounds to eliminate a threat you got real bad aiming habits. Developed in the early 1960s, the .223 round was first used in Vietnam. The only thing caliber has to do with it is 9mm is size efficient for capacity. Millenials and their bias arguments. Request product info from top Ammunition companies. Where the human component is a significant factor thats been deleted from so many test results. And the quicker the better when someones fanning a gun at you. Copyright 2023 Police1. Dr. Leana Wen, a trauma surgeon and the health commissioner for Baltimore, wrote a column in the New York Times about the especially devastating effects of expanding rounds: often pulverizing bones, tearing blood vessels and liquefying organs. She remembered one young man who was admitted to her emergency room with an abdominal wound from a hollow-point round. Okay all handgun are garbage. To me the rest dont count. Psychological factors play a much greater role. Better get that imagination under control, tough guy! .45 Magazine type M1911 mag.45 ACP: Damage 1389 Blood: Fire modes Semi Shots to kill body: 3 head: 1 Effective range 50/100 m Rate of fire moderate Recoil Moderat Noise Moderate handgun on the UN Side. So anyone reading this, you should check this gun out. Steel BB (0.170" ball bearing) at 200 ft/s will make a hole, but will not penetrate 4" plate glass. In other words, negative acceleration and a non-linear path are both occurring. WebThe.45 acp proved an effective round with greatly improved stopping power. This makes rifle rounds significantly more damaging than their handgun counterparts. What do you Think of the S&W Shield? Sources say Jimmy Lam used a TEC-9 style pistol, illegal to sell in the state for almost two decades. .45 Actually killed to individual who I shot vs the others who all but one lived. In reaching this conclusion, the FBI appeared to give too little weight to the tissue-crushing ability of the larger projectiles (.40 S& W; .45 Auto). I only want to pull the trigger 1-3 times. The temporary cavity is the hole in the target that briefly expands after immediate impact, only to collapse a fraction of a second later. That said today I only carry my 5th gen Glock 19. I am old school. It turns out, however, that things arent that simple. The energy delivered to the target increases geometrically along with increases in mass, and exponentially with increases in velocity. Fire Rate: 240 rounds/minute. This includes victims shot by suspetcs and suspects shot by our officers. Do give the Walther PPS serious consideration. 15 -25 yards lol I can hit you in between the eyes with my co2 bb pistol. Shot placement is the deciding factor. Handgun cartridges just dont do that. spot on ! False. I still prefer the .45. The 45 deer had busted bones and bullets still within them. I would make the same recommendation to all American law enforcement agencies who are considering a switch to 9mm handguns. People have lived through being nuclear bombed. 2 from 15 ft, 2 from 25 ft, jumping to 2 from 50 ft. And 2 from 100ft. Keep in mind that fragmentation does sometimes occur, however, it cannot be relied upon. So how can we expect people to take a human life so readily? Your shot placement will be perfect. Im not going to begin to discuss the variables between the two calibers and cartridge designs but statistics released from DOJ shows that larger cartridges are more effective at stopping Humans per round on target. A forum community dedicated to all 1911 firearm owners and enthusiasts. Now for long engagements that are seen more in military ops and where fire suppression matters most I prefer 9mm. If youve ever spent anytime shooting steel then you would know which one will take someone off their feet quicker. Basically what I'm saying is the .50 is almost the same size as .45 and the tissue damage is near the same. But I think the bigger point to be made is that it would not be wise to make a decision on a pistol or caliber simply because it is bigger, and therefore more manly. It should be made based on the merits and actual performance of the different calibers and/or pistols. cause if they did there would not be so many innocent victims being injured and killed all because they couldnt hit the side of a barn with a soft ball from 5 ft. #firearmtraining. I immediately thought, I think Ive been shot. Took about 1Min until the shock yielded to the pain. The beautiful country in south east Asia. Physiologically, a highly motivated target can only be destroyed by hitting the brain or the upper spinal column. The U.S. military collected reports of its effects on the first Viet Cong combatants to be shot with the bullet. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); 2023 Concealed Carry Inc. All Rights Reserved. That changed for me Dec of 2017. This post reported that the FBI Training Division had reevaluated which handgun round was best for FBI agents and reached the following conclusions: The 2014 FBI Training Division Report stated that the FBI had chosen the 9mm bullet (147 grain Speer Gold Dot G2) for FBI agents to carry because, The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters.. If one keeps a weapon in the home for self defense, we believe that it is a duty to know the weapon inside and out and to train with it regularly. Im an athletic guy so handling the recoil is not too bad. I had a Sig P320 and the recoil is not that much greater. But, this little word but often comes up in real life. A 4 inch Redhawk 45 colt loaded with 24 grains of H100 under a 335 grain Cast performance sledgehammer should be good against the largest carnivore Todd. If you take it in the field and get it dirty, see how easily serviceable that weapon is then. If a projectile has features that would cause it to expand upon impact, U.S. Army engineers Donald Carlucci and Sidney Jacobson explained in the textbook Ballistics: Theory and Design of Guns and Ammunition, it will cause greater trauma.. .45 in Nam and owned one for several years. When the engagement really happens and it is very fluid you are going to point shoot. So Marines are now trained to simply kill them. It is really scary to think that a jury would put any weight behind what he says knowing that the rest of my life will be determined by the crap spewed forth from him.