He should not even be allowed to control his own [emailprotected]. This will help to ensure that you are fully prepared for whatever happens next. "N731NR (again, whining): "I requested Bravo clearance about 15 miles ago. Maybe, just maybe this controller was playing her Bravo authority a little too far? Got it in there but lake was too short for lake off. Pull that @$$holes license and give him a huge fine. I'm only going this way because something in his demeanor smells like something else is at play. This guy is a class-one "all about me" narcissist who makes GA pilots look bad. The tower controller likely For everyone making your amazing judgment calls on the Henderson controller: This guy intentionally violated it, then took up ATC's time fighting about it. Instructions on distribution of She is going to give him the number when he's ready. This pilot penatrated that airspace at what appears to have been approximately 4800. Either that, or "Karen" is the "wife" this aircraft is registered to in "Wife Approved LLC". ATC: "N1NR, possible pilot deviation, advise to contact Las Vegas approach. If you have any questions or concerns, please contact the coordinator(s) found in the letter. Almost everybody agrees the jerk was wrong and dangerously so. Anarchists on the ground, anarchists in the air. Mistakes happen. Doxing is not right. Is there an issue? Word of caution: the owner of the aircraft is easily found, and plenty of information is out there. WWFeldman Pre-takeoff checklist Joined: Nov 11, 2019 Messages: 107 Display name: WWFeldman I'm sure we all remember our favorite bravo buster. Thank you for your very thoughtful insight. Thank you for your attached FOIA request. To break down the exchange, the air traffic controller orders the aircraft to leave the Bravo airspace and pilot whines and refuses because he's already in the airspace. In this case, a plane with the registration code N1NR enters Bravo airspace without clearance to do so, and thats where the situation starts: ATC: N1NR, I need you outside of the Bravo.Pilot: Negative.ATC: Negative what?Pilot: Im inside.ATC: You were not given a clearance through the Bravo. Good luck. > Nobody gives a f*. Thanks to anyone who knows. Time for this jerk to buy a ticket on Southwest and shut up. With respect to my comment above (cant edit), delete the word email from the comment (next to last word). I know this Controller and she is good at her job. The guy should be investigated and suspended until taught both manners and flying law. Double that. I live in Las Vegas. She was far better to him than a lot of NY approach controllers are to good pilots on a good day (and I like NY approach, by the way). Hundreds could have died. He responded rogerrrrrrrrrr. The main reason is safety to clear an area around the airport for takeoffs and landings. I'm flying." In aviation terms regarding "pilot deviation", the controller is telling the pilot that he is being reported, and there will be an investigation by the FAA. Visit a tracon JUST ONCE. That kind of thing happens every day. Either way, whether medical or psychological, the solution is the same - he shouldnt have a license. "Isnt the airspace over international airports congested (and dangerous) enough without these general aviation Cesena clowns and the Harrison Fords of the world putting the rest of us at risk? But if it was just a misjudgment, and we all make those from time to time, the appropriate response would be to simply apologize to the Controller, then get out. If N1NR requested clearance but did not hear back from ATC, they would have to repeat the request as they cannot assume what ATC heard; however, it is highly unlikely that even if ATC heard the request they would allow N1NR clearance into Bravo. Of course that is true, but people who are suffering recent onset of dementia / tumor-induced emotional outbursts / schizophrenia etc. The more belligerent she became the more concerned the staff was. If you are on an IFR flight and told to maintain a certain altitude, deviating from that altitude beyond tolerances set by the regs qualifies as pilot deviation. They don't take airspace incursions lightly, ESPECIALLY in the #8 most busy airport in the US. I was really busy at the time and he took up much of my time and reduced the safe operation of the airspace. Doing so erodes hand flying skills which is evident in the last phase of his flight. "Other pilot: "You're an ass$&#!". From available ATC communications, it appears this particular pilot either forgot to make the request, or thought he made the request to get permission. Don't argue with these pros. Pilot deviation is a serious mistake to make when you are piloting a plane, and the consequences could be disastrous. If you do not, then you might face losing your certificate, which isnt what anybody wants. It should be a few hundred. The call taker should stick to the facts and avoid all emotionality, etc. This kind of thing gets people killed. 3h 18m. I remember about 20 years ago when my grandfather and I flew up to Vegas to SEMA and we flew outside class bravo and he explicitly explained that we dont get near that ring until ATC says clear to enter. (i.e. Aviation SafetyOffice of Safety StandardsRegulatory Support DivisionAviation Data Systems Branch, In our continuing effort to improve the quality of service to our stakeholders, we would appreciate any comments you may have about our services and how to improve them. Must have been a Kennedy. She was released later on. This leads the pilot to tell ATC to clear him. You might get hypoxic if you fly right over Class B at 10000 or above. This is usually in the following format: (Aircraft identification) POSSIBLE PILOT DEVIATION, ADVISE YOU CONTACT (facility) AT (telephone number). Either that, or "Karen" is the "wife" this aircraft is registered to in "Wife Approved LLC". Even if he was previously allowed in the airspace, once told to get out, he has to go, no debate and certainly no defiance. I was working the ER In Jerusalem and this belligerent teen was being kept there for observation post head trauma. Thats the whole point of talking to you.ATC: You have to have a Bravo clearance. often don't recognize their own issue. This is serious,you can't be that blatantly disobedient. Thank you in advance for your anticipated cooperation in this matter. Typically, as tower, I don't care about the details, I've got stuff to do. While we do try to list all the best miles and points deals, the site does not include all card companies or credit card offers available in the marketplace. Unfortunately, that's not what happened. They have your lives in their hands. The wheels of justice grind slowly but they do grind - Ken White (a lawyer and a good one). Last thing I want flying over a populated area is some guy who thinks he owns the airspace, and willing to butt heads over it. Hundreds could have died. Answer (1 of 8): Forgive me, but I have a tendency to twist ambiguous questions like this. Ive dealt the entering class B many times. In over 30 years of flying, I have sat and listened to amateur pilots give ATC professionals a load of sh*#. He probably should have his certificate revoked. This guy is a real threat to himself and others. Heres the full ATC audio, should you want to listen to it (when you listen to it youll appreciate just how angry this guys tone is): Ive never heard ATC audio where a pilot is so disobedient to instructions. Secure .gov websites use HTTPS We will leave some of the most common violations below for you to read about. Pilot deviation is when the actions of the pilot result in the violation of a Federal Aviation Regulation or a North American Aerospace Defense Command Air Defense Identification Zone tolerance. Harrison Ford is an accomplished pilot that made the same sort of mistake that many Commercial ATP pilots have made setting up for the wrong runway or taxiway etc. The F-15 and F-16 have to go over twice that. * See for example https://youtu.be/mUSUXnr4dSo, Subject: HQ: Request 2020-007191 under the Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S.C. He could have declared, he could have said he has a medical emergency, heck he could have said all sorts of things. When Can You Deviate From an ATC Clearance? 07-Oct-2022. I won't belabor those points. This brasher warning is intended to provide the involved flight crew with the opportunity to make note of the incident that has taken place and gather their thoughts before it is discussed. He should AT LEAST be suspended, and frankly, given his behavior, I have no issue with his losing it. Pilot deviation is a serious incident, and there can be lots of different outcomes depending on the exact situation. The information contained in this record should be the most current Airworthiness information available in the historical aircraft record. Any follow up on this? This may come as a shock to you, but us general aviation Cesena (sic) clowns have as much right to use the airspace as any commercial operation. 800 Independence Avenue, SW (at least formally) Also in this case, N1NR is crossing directly into the path of other aircraft's landing approach (2 Southwest airplanes at that moment were landing). document.getElementById( "ak_js" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); He violated Bravo airspace. But N1NR wants clearance nonetheless and is refusing to leave. Thank you, number as soon as IP returns will have him call. He did request a clearance. Anyone flying under VFR (Visual . airworthiness of an aircraft or the current aircraft configuration. Get the stick out of your asses. The Original Donna: Class Bravo & Charlie airspace requires certain verbal permission to fly in/out/ and through it, but you have basic lack of understanding when it comes to the airspace system I fear. Anyone flying under VFR (Visual Flight Rules) needs to hear the words You are cleared to enter the Bravo airspace before entering the Bravo airspace. However, the penalties for pilot deviation can be quite severe, which is something that you should be aware of. This guy intentionally violated it, then took up ATC's time fighting about it. Ground deviations can happen while taxiing, taking off, or . But I'd recommend against posting it, even if that person turns out to be the idiot in question. Airborne deviations can result when pilots stray from an assigned, heading, altitude, or instrument procedure, or if they penetrate controlled or restricted airspace without ATC clearance. This notice provides new procedures for investigating pilot deviations (PD), and completing FAA Form 8020-18, Investigation of Pilot Deviation Report by certificate-holding district offices (CHDO), Flight Standards District Offices (FSDO), and certificate management offices (CMO) with oversight of air carrier operators certificated under 1NR, exit the Bravo immediately.Pilot: Ive been talking to you the whole time. - file an IFR (instrument flight rules) flight plan that gives you the same priority as airline traffic. The pilot will most likely face a license suspension and other penalties. Having been a pilot for over 50 years let me assure you this pilot will receive more than a you shouldnt do that anymore. ATC either turns him around or gives him a better heading. Karen Mosley apparetly is clueless about aviation. If N1NR had requested clearance, ATC would have responded with clearance or denial and N1NR would have to confirm what was said. This pilot came in over Lake Meade under the class B which requires no ATC clearance to operate an aircraft. The pilot of N731NR is a jerk, as well as an unsafe pilot that should not be flying. But it's not an excuse for the way he talked to the controller. Maybe, just maybe this controller was playing her Bravo authority a little too far? I'm without reason or belief to know why you lack the ability to be surprised. Thank you. My reliable bet is that sometime between approach switching the aircraft to tower and the time the phone number is read, the pilot gave the tower controller a sob story. Even the big airline pilots (American, Delta, etc.) Maybe "Karen" is the fictitious name the ignorant/uncaring pilot in this story gave himself!? 08:47PM EDT Montreal-Trudeau - YUL. LAS may not have even heard the static. There's many, many reason why a plane is not allowed into Bravo space. 866.835.5322 (866-TELL-FAA)Contact Us, United States Department of Transportation, Aviation Safety Draft Documents Open for Comment, Airport Coronavirus Response Grant Program, Legislation & Policies, Regulations & Guidance, Certificated Remote Pilots including Commercial Operators, Recreational Flyers & Modeler Community-Based Organizations, Archived Quarterly Enforcement Reports (These reports date back to the first quarter of 1997. When an aircraft is approaching your airspace and the destination is on the opposite side, it's obvious that they're going to need to descend at some point. Attached you will find the Acknowledgment Letter in response to your Freedom of Information Act request. Sounds like he could have told the controller when given the phone number or when he called that it wasn't him if he wanted to. I know what he did was wrong but I understand his frustration. @Francis Bagbey The Registry will be issuing revised certificates in batches based on the former expiration date. An entitled pilot enters restricted airspace and argues with air traffic control when told to leave.It appears to be a normal day June 20, 2020 at Las Vegas Air Traffic Control (ATC) when an air traffic controller directing planes notices a small Cessna in Bravo airspace that was not cleared to be there. Please find attached the completed copy of your FOIA request number 2020-007191 from the Aviation Data Systems Branch in Oklahoma City. Especially for psychological problems, and probably especially if something's making you hypoxic below 6000 feet. Commercial Pilot I wish there was a portal where we could interject and tell the FAA to shove one up this guy's six. A pilot will be given priority in an emergency situation, and they will need to submit a report of this emergency within 48 hours to the manager of the ATC facility if this is requested of them. The FARs couldn't be more clear on this situation. It is really important to understand how severe the consequences can be. Note that the question does NOT ask: > When ATC has you call them for pilot deviation you have made, what do they say on the phone? Review: EgyptAir Lounge Cairo Airport (CAI). "LAS: "N1NR, I told you to remain outside the Bravo". We cannot possibly explain reasoning behind every denial of service at the time it happens. That's movie crap. I fly in the busy Chicago airspace as a private pilot and the vast majority of Private pilots are as professional as the air transport pilots, and are often much less complacent in and around the class B and class C airspace. The problem is with dangerous attitude. Pilot deviation can leave passengers, crew, and people on the ground in danger. It is a technical term that means that the pilot in command failed to observe FAA regulations, ATC clearances, or temporary flight restrictions in the conduct of his/her flight. If he had a sick passenger he should have explained the situation to ATC better or at all. I think by "Airforce" [sic] you're thinking of all those movies you've seen. Student then bought a old Grumen Float plane thinking he would used it to fly back and forth to his lake home. Then landed on the beach. No one commented on the commercial airliner that had to deviate (immediate drop in altitude) from his glide path when he got a visual on the offending email plane. I've gotta jump on the bandwagon in wondering "just what the heck 'Karen' was thinking" when she told the 99.9999999% of commentors on this site to get the "sticks out of their asses". Now he may have requested clearance BUT requesting clearance and being granted clearance are two different things. These guys & women keep 10-20 balls in the air constantly..you think you can do better?? 1NR, exit the Bravo immediately"N731NR (whining): "I've been talking to you the whole time. This was a deliberate and willful violation of regulations. I assume the ATC reports him to the FAA and the FAA investigates? For more information, please see our The pilot was asked to leave, but decides to stay. He endangered so many people. Student - he did get his private after 3 more months of practice. incorporated its pilot deviation notification procedures into the Facility Operation and Administration publication in 1986. There are "occupations" of the Seattle State Assembly. From: twitter.com/journo_anon Public Records Requester, Subject: Freedom of Information Act Request: FAA records for N731NR. - hold until otherwise instructed Whats with the last controller sounding like he is appeasing this dude, instead of trusting the previous controller. Blatantly ignoring ATC is criminally gross negligence. Information Mike current at Henderson, they're landing 35"N731NR: [inaudible]. It will get figured out. He responds that he's been "talking to her the whole time." That's a serious violation right there to blatantly refuse an order by ATC. Next morning he called student and flew with him back to FSD did 3 practice approaches with touch and go with the last being a full stop. NOBODY and I mean NOBODY will fly next to a cessna and then hold up a sign (that conveniently they stashed in the cockpit) and write on it with a magic marker. I noticed the same aircraft had an incident last year with a gear-up landing in St. Louis. I'd very much like to know. She is going to give him the number when he's ready. Every pilot has equal access to the airspace system and have All the information we have at this point shows that he blamed ATC for . Thank you for your pointing out you're anti-USA and somehow a pilot incursion into Class Bravo airspace has to do with "anti-mask BS". Researching this pilot's flight with FlightAware and Flightradar24 a much clearer picture emerges. Have you ever said That's a terrible thing to say, that a pilot should lose his license. Wnt to the FBO called the ATC sup from the day before had him and the controller involved from the previous flight, made student apologize for his behavior requested they critique student radio skill (he always had a cigar stub in his mouth, refused to remove it). The pilot was asked to leave, but decides to stay. This pilot came in over Lake Meade under the class B which requires no ATC clearance to operate an aircraft. There's many reasons my flights keep being delayed and canceled and ATC being overworked is one of them. The Cessna P210N stall speed is 67 knots. Pilot: Ive asked for clearance multiple times.ATC: N1NR, I told you to remain outside the Bravo.ATC: N1NR, possible pilot deviation, advise to contact Las Vegas approach. He never said he was unable to exit the Bravo due to terrain like he told the supervisor. That's no cause to kill him. Please inform me prior to conducting any service demanding fees.I would prefer the request filled electronically, by e-mail attachment if available or CD-ROM if not. Please refer to the above referenced number on all future correspondence regarding this request. I am sure you are a "perfect angel". Why Do They Cut the Back of Your Shirt When You First Fly Solo? This request is not currently in perfected status. Unless it has been authorized by the ATC, no pilot should operate an aircraft according to any clearance or instruction that has been issued to the pilot of another aircraft. For the next month Dad did at least one flight with all of IPs students to check on his teaching ability. However, unless you are in a Class A airspace, a pilot is allowed to cancel an IFR flight plan if the operation is being conducted in VFR weather conditions. The guy is completely wrong, sad thing is he will probably only get a slap on the wrist. This incident is recorded as all radio communications between planes and ATC are definitely recorded as a matter of public record:https://onemileatatime.com/atc-audio-negligent-pilot/. ATC Audio: Negligent Pilot Argues With Air Traffic Controller, I love listening to air traffic control audio, Not Good: Boom Overture Left Without Engines, Factorydesigns Innovative New Narrow Body Business Class Seat, Please view our advertising policy page for additional details about our partners. What are the Advantages of Using VOR Systems for Navigation? Cut off a commercial airline at the beginning of his short final resulting in a missed approach and go round for him. Shesa credit to the profession. This guy might just be the most negligent pilot ever in terms of how he ignores instructions. Maybe on a subconscious level, you realize that there are departures off of Runway 27R as well. I, at times, if the weather is good enough, cancelled IFR..continuing on my own. Bravo airspace, like Ben said, is the airspace around major airports in the country. Second, yes, people make mistakes, and when someone tells you "Hey you made a mistake here's Karen: I thought I was cleared, I have an ill 6 year old on board. Air traffic controllers are susceptible to power trips and moods and biases, just like everyone else. B734. OR he's actually the A that pilot b called him and in that case, break out the cheese grater and throw the AH over your knee. Thank you.Respectfully,Geneva LaingManagement and Program Analyst, Management & Administrative Support Team, AJV-W640, Northwest Mountain Regional OfficeATO Western Service CenterResource Management Group2200 S. 216th St., 3rd Floor, 3N-458Des Moines, WA 98198Office: 206-231-3337Geneva.Laing@faa.gov, [Your new Mission Support Services Logo! Editorial Disclosure: The editorial content on this page is not provided by any entity mentioned herein. Please provide a copy of all records previously provided under FOIA request: 2020-007074WS . Recognizing the mistakes, learning from them, and apologizing makes for more experienced PICs, and thus safer airspace. To do this, they will use the Brasher Notification Phraseology. I will answer the question exactly as written: > When ATC has you call. Typically, as tower, I don't care about the details, I've got stuff to do. He just flat out refused. Laws don't matter anymore. In contrast, the pilot of N731NR exhibited an unrepentant anti-authority attitude. I hope this guy is ready to hear a lot of "unable VFR services" or "radar services terminated, squawk VFR, frequency change approved" when they recognize who he is again. "N731NR (angrily): "I'm not ready to copy. twitter.com/journo_anon Public Records Requester. Pull that @$$holes license and give him a huge fine. I think by "Airforce" [sic] you're thinking of all those movies you've seen. Wrong. I'm a commercial pilot and CFII. As such, he is supposed to go around the airspace. Keep up the anti-mask bs. What happened to this pilot? Watch how 731NR Decides to fly right into class bravo and not even care about it. Humans make mistakes sometimes its not a reason to bully somebody. This is why the controller is denying entry into Bravo space. When Can I Apply For Student Pilot Certificate? We have your student at the local FBO, and one of my people has the keys. I'll give you the number when you're ready to copy. This will come out in time. She then states (in so many words) that she didn't clear him and she's the only one that can clear him. It should have gone 1NR, please exit the Bravo. He refuses to leave airspace even though he never had clearance to fly through it, and he refuses to take down a number because hes flying., Hopefully an investigation is done and this guy loses his license. We will also go into the consequences that could occur if you were to get into trouble for this. Pilot "I busted class b". Both pilot and atc handled the situation poorly. To all the negative comments we did not hear previous communication. I've gotta jump on the bandwagon in wondering "just what the heck 'Karen' was thinking" when she told the 99.9999999% of commentors on this site to get the "sticks out of their asses". Subject: FOIA 2020-007191WP DUE: 8/6/2020, 411A Highland AvenueSomerville, MA 02144-2516, Subject: Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) Request 2020-007191WP. The aircraft, N731NR, is registered to "Wife Approved LLC." Most helpful comments ( as chosen by the OMAAT community ). Result - IP and my Mom who normally ran the business in Dads absence got back at the same time. Your feedback is important in helping us keep our community safe. You'd be surprised how many Pilots act like they are the only plane an ATC is working even tho she is nonstop talking sequencing Arrivals to one of the top 5 busiest airports in the USA!!! Just like the American pilots did when they couldn't get runway 31 at JFK. The guy is completely wrong, sad thing is he will probably only get a slap on the wrist. Humans make mistakes sometimes its not a reason to bully somebody. It seems like the pilot was intent on entering Bravo with or without permission. However, this data alone does not provide the basis for a determination regarding the. His license should be permanently revoked. How hard would it be to just clear him through? Continuing into class Bravo airspace without a clearance and then flying right thru the active ILS approach to a major airport is a huge problem. I'll give you the number when you're ready to copy." . 3 This pilot is more than likely going to have to do recurrent training probably 10 to 15 hrs before privalages can be restored. First, when aviation is involved we ALL give a f. People's lives are at risk. CTO (Control Tower Operator) with AS Degree in ATC. N731NR (angrily): "I'm not ready to copy. Harrison Ford is an accomplished pilot that made the same sort of mistake that many Commercial ATP pilots have made setting up for the wrong runway or taxiway etc. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. Second in a high traffic area like near an airport multiple pilots can be on the same channel, it is a way to identify the pilot speaking as one pilot may sound like another. "Negative, November-one-romeo (N1NR)" would be the appropriately phrased response. "N731NR (whining): "I'm inside"LAS: "You were not given a clearance through the Bravo. Instead he immediately gets defensive and then combative. This guys ego trip does not trump the lives of the flying public and those on the ground who live under the pattern.